MMORPGS controlled by Moderators or the Fans?

So who controls MMORPGs these days and their fate? Moderators or the Gamers?

Because of the following post I was banned from the forums at Darkfallonline.com by of course Brannoc the moderator.... Review and let me know your thoughts... The post itself was deleted from the boards of darkfall.... *sigh*


I have tried to discuss with you the forum members the merits of Permadeath... Of course every time I attempt to begin the subject it is locked by Brannoc. Many of you agree. I could list 20 names from just my private messages but won't bring the hate upon you that I have had to endure.

Recently Brannoc locked yet another permadeath post which I replied to that was started by a member named DDT. DDT was an old school DF Fan who wanted DF to break out the shell of the tried and true games and do something orginal. Essentially he wanted a virtual world. The stakes of which him and I could hash out as he wanted one death and I prefer a 100 deaths. Why 100? Well I have explained this before but essentially to brew it down to the coffee of the discussion I want a game that proves to be challenging while not removing the fun from the game. Permadeath in the fashion I prescribe is not a new concept. It has been around since the days of Dikumuds long before most of you ever played what you deem a MMORPG. DikuMUDS features Permadeath in many different forms. The most popular of which was the fates system. A system where there was full PvP and Full loot. You had X lives and your life actions and the gear you acquired all mattered. Should you die you would probably lose all your gear and assuredly lose a fate. Once you ran out of fates you had to reroll. Trust me, it behooved people to behave well in this game and those that chose not to well... most of them were fated rather quickly but some... some were good. VERY good. In fact some were so good we assumed as players that developers must be playing them. Even though as players we had designed characters better then these assassins.... Nonetheless they were hated and hunted. Eventually they would fate. It took time, coordination and a attitude of vigilance but we accomplished it. I lost a mid level and high level character to one paticualry annoying assassin but in the end his final lifepoint was taken by me. What a thrill! What a feeling of exilheration and conquest!

I'm not here to advocate permadeath in Darkfall, in fact I would if a developer would even discuss it... Perhaps even if a Moderator ALLOWED it to be discussed... But I have posted numerous threads on Permadeath with links to about 30 different websites and articles from game designers to the new york times. I have posted links to other games featuring permadeath and quoted the number of followers of each respective game. I have pointed out the problems of Darkfall and what I think needs to be changed even if that game doesn't feature permadeath. Hell I have even tried to talk to a theoretical discussion where 1 server in all of Darkfalls servers is permadeath server. Believe it or not if Darkfall released tommorow with 99 regular servers and 1 permadeath server people would still fight against the 1 permadeath server. I'm not sure if its a pride thing or a fear of the unknown but I know this: The moderators of this board hate permadeath.

It got me thinking too. What shapes the future of a game... Personally these days I'm inclined to believe its the moderators. The allow what they want to be discussed and shut down anything they disagree with. Most developers are probably not even inclines to read locked threads as the percieve them to be mindless drivel littered with profanitys....

Recently I asked Brannoc why he locked the thread on Permadeath:

I said
Claus didn't lock it.... Why do you have to?

Since this is text and you can't see my face, I'm not trying to be cynical but I see no need for you to champion Claus when this topic has been brought up so many times but never allowed to be discussed.

Now I kind of feel the reason for that is that you yourself don't support Permadeath and lock threads that even touch on the subject but that is just a feeling I have from following the game over the years and should not by interpreted as fact.

Of course Im not the only one to draw that conclusion but I feel its easier to bump topics of posters who feel simliarly to as I do rather then begin discussions the mods deem pointless but the community may care about. I would like to remind you I have also posted polls you have as of not yet deemed ready for posting and every thread begun by me that features permadeath has been locked by you. (And only you)

Also I would like to point out that you have kicked me from IRC for even mentioning permadeath and in all of this... I have never once gotten nasty and strayed from being honorable while those that oppose it have insulted me and sworn at me. Seriously how many of my posts have you been forced to delete because of profanity or acting like a fool... On the contrary any post started by me that deals with a subject I know you hate is usually locked.... What words do you have for me?


and he had this to say...

Brannoc Said:
1. Claus himself has told you that permadeath isn't happening. I've told you. Tasos has told you. We've asked you not to continue creating threads telling everyone how it has to be there, you've ignored it. I interpret your current actions as trolling.

2. I don't recall removing you from IRC, however it runs on Stratics rules. While you might have a persecution complex I'm afraid that neither I or the staff are "out to get you" due to your personal opinions and preferences which you interpret as facts which must be adhered to.

Simply put I locked your current thread on the topic because it's from 2002. Myself and two other staff members judged your post to be nothing more than trolling in an attempt to draw the producer into a public argument. Such things just won't fly, no matter how badly you believe the game should be made in your vision.

My reply?

1.... I would like to discuss this topic with the community not just Claus. (Although he would be a welcome addition seeing as it his game and these are his forums)

2. Look at any thread I have started featuring the word permadeath and note it has been locked by Brannoc... Also note he is not for permadeath.

My post Continues
As for the rest... Truly... Does anyone here think I come here simple to troll? I have been coming to these boards for quite some time and I know I could come up with trolling posts that are less then the average length of my posts... Regarding games being developed in my vision? I believe the mods lock anything that suggests the game wont be developed in their vision. I have tried a single server discussion, a theorectical discussion and a complete imagine a system 10 years down the road discussion... Regardless of how it is phrased the post is locked and/or deleted.... Can't we once just all get along?

Pre-Release Communities

Ferox on Pre-Release Communities

So Ferox posted a new article on whether or not pre-beta communities matter. Currently he runs a fan site for the upcoming game DarkFall and is a fairly active poster. His points being the developers have been silent for quite some time which doesn't seem to bode well for the future of the game and that the developers really don't appreciate all the hard work people like him do for their site. Personally I feel that the fans who do frequent the DF site take comfort in seeing posts from the likes of people like Ferox and other regulars. That is the familiar voices and signatures of the die hard fans.

When they drop in, (infrequently, usally), some just look to see regular's posts. Sometimes they ask what seems to be a stupid question and the answers to that question are freely available, but not to the them. They don't know where to look and even if they do then they are unlikely to make the effort, esp when its far easier to post a stupid question and immediately get a response. It adds a certain comfort level and hardcore fans provide somewhat of a service to these companies.

From the developers point of view he may be right. No matter how infequently they post updates many people will never leave until they hear release or cancelled. Even when games are cancelled, the die hard fans stick around for quite some time. Unless the developers close the forums, then the fans (or ex-fans) in this case, goto mmorpg.com or even other games with a similar concept and post there. Its quite common.

Regarding ideas and concepts... it's really tough for people to add ideas or specific concepts to the minds of developers in a meaningful way. I mean every fan in virtually any game that hasn't been released has a different perspective of what the game will be and really what it is at any given time.

What would it really be like making a living as an elven thief in the elven village of Neardoaen? No one really knows save the developers (And even they are occasionally guessing at massive multiplayer character dynamics/interaction of their own game).

Thus while its great to say I want this feature or that feature, integrating any feature into a game many only have a cursorary high level view of is normally a recipe for disaster.

As a good a example take my stance on Permadeath. I still believe that what I want in a MMORPG is a virtual world with real world physics and a hard limit on respawning to simulate real world death. A hard limit should be large enough to not take the fun out of the game and make death feared yet low enough to provide challenge and a simulated reality for gamers. Limiting the number of respawns also rewards those who prefer not to take risks and hang out in town crafting and socializing while also rewarding those dangerous enough to go out exploring and take risks. (The rewards are different in both cases, Longevity and Glory respectively... Yet even the latter offers a chance for longevity).

This is my firm view. It has changed and evolved over the years and even some of my view points have changed. Yet it is what I think I would find the most fun and what I would prefer to spend my money on.

Is this is a fit for some of the upcoming games like Darkfall? Probably not... Could a server in Darkfall be adapted with an alternate ruleset? Perhaps... Unlikely though. Darkfall is not trying to simulate a real world environment. They have unrealistic features such as tell and alignment tracking. (A faerie that knows my every action?) Clan chat, Telepathic toons (You know everyone's name) a fake... or what I like to call a mini-game, 'Siege System' because making a siege system that has any resemblance to reality would just take the fun out of the game and make the game boring for players. How about some creativity... Lets make a siege system that as closely as possible recreates the physics and excitement of a real siege while not taking the fun out of it... Starving a town for month is realistic but not fun, so is their a way we can implement starving a town that is both fun and interesting? People do not want to see their towns destroyed in an hour if it took them months to build? So can we simulate this and make it fun? The answer is yes... In fact the answer should always be yes until its no. And the no better be a compelling reason as the fans for these games have been waiting an awful long time.

In short Darkfall in its current Faqdition (Condition based on the faq) is not a good fit for almost any feature based on reality. They are creating a game, a game I have played before and enjoyed but have no desire to play again. I havent played Starcraft since Age of Kings released. The innovations in the gameplay and the evolution is too much a stepping stone to drop back to even though I LOVED starcraft. I haven't played Age of Kings since Age of Mythology released. I haven't played Everquest since DAoC released nor DAoC since Shadowbane. And since I left Shadowbane I don't plan on playing another game until the genre takes that next step. That step will likely be taken by Shadowpool with Trials of Ascension. Time will tell.